Welcome to the Kingdom Crossroads podcast with Pastor Bob Thibodeau.

Pastor Bob conducts personal interviews with Christian influencers from around the globe, helping Christian authors, recording artists, CEOs, entrepreneurs, nonprofit leaders, and yes, pastors and ministry leaders to get the word out about what they are doing to impact the world with the gospel.

Our podcast has been rated in the top 1/2% of all podcasts in the world by ListenNotes.com so you know your message will be heard.

Now here is your host with today's interview, Pastor Bob Thibodeau.

Hello everyone everywhere.

Pastor Bob Thibodeau here.

Welcome to the Kingdom Crossroads podcast today.

We're so blessed you're joining us.

Have you ever wondered how ordinary people find themselves trapped in the grip of a religious cult?

In his gripping memoir, Peter Young has written this book, Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger and he shares his personal journey of breaking free from toxic leadership and spiritual manipulation.

If you or someone you know has felt silenced or controlled or spiritually drained by a community meant that's supposed to be uplifting, well, this conversation today is for you.

Discover the warning signs of cult like behavior, learn how to protect yourself and find hope, and Peter's powerful story of resilience and redemption.

With all that being said, help me.

Welcome to the program Peter Young.

Peter, it is a blessing to be able to talk with you today about your experience.

I thank you for taking time out of your schedule to join us.

Pastor thank you.

It's a pleasure to be here.

Amen.

The first question I always start with is this.

Other than that brief information I just shared, can you tell us in your own words who is Peter Young?

Sure.

You know, I like to tell people.

I'll give you the Reader's Digest version.

I grew up on the east coast in a Christian family and I was obsessed with basketball and I was going to be the next Larry Bird and that didn't happen.

But I did go to play basketball in college at George Washington University in D.C.

and when I got done, I was going to get into coaching and I was going to be the next John Wooden or Mike Krzyzewski.

That didn't happen.

So I had moved out west by that point.

And then I decided I was going to be a sports broadcaster.

So I got into sports broadcasting, had a nice career and I was going to be the next Bob Costas and that didn't happen.

So probably not to my 40s or 50s where the Lord finally taught me the lesson that my identity is in him and not in what I do.

So I have Written two books.

I got another one coming.

So I'm not looking to be the next John Grisham or Louis Lamour.

I'm just trying to be Peter, the person the Lord wants me to be.

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah.

You have too much hair to be Bob Costas.

Too tall to be Bob Costas.

My favorite broadcaster of all time had to be Howard Cosell.

I mean, that was, you know, he.

He.

He kept me laughing all the time.

Or you hated him.

You either loved him.

Yeah, I was one of them that loved him.

I thought he was great.

But hey, man, a lot of people hated him.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, your story is incredibly powerful.

And can you.

Let's start by sharing how you first realized that the community you were part of was in fact, a cult.

Great question.

And that would really be near the tail end of the story.

So I unwittingly joined the cult when I married the love of my life.

So for many years, I went along to get along with my wife to preserve my marriage, because Paige, she adored Uncle Robert, who was the cult leader, who was not related to any of us.

That's what we called him.

And so it wasn't until, you know, 20 years into marriage, she finally left me because I wasn't pure enough, devoted enough to Uncle Robert, who was claiming I was incapable of receiving salvation.

So thus I was not a Christian.

I was a fraud and a demon and a liar.

So then my wife started to teach my children that I was the devil, Satan, sorcerer, liar.

And I remember at the time, I was brainwashed.

I was brainwashed for about two, two and a half years.

After, you know, for all those years questioning him, I finally caved.

I just couldn't hold out.

The pressure was too great.

And then he would say and do things that, you know, for many years, you could excuse it because it was Uncle Robert.

You know, he could get away with things and say things that you and I couldn't.

He was special.

Cult leaders are always special, right?

They can do things that we're not allowed to.

So then when my family around the country, my brothers and sister in laws, my parents, who didn't really know anything about this cult, weren't involved in it.

When I finally reached out to them, you know, my wife left me.

The kids, you know, think I'm the devil.

They surrounded me with love.

Christ, like love.

And they really, I believe the Lord used them to open my eyes and ears to the truth.

Took about a year.

I mean, Pastor, I was you know, only brainwashed for about again, two years or so.

It took a year to recover to finally say, whoa.

Yeah, that was a cult.

Wow.

Oh, wow.

Well, what are.

What were some of the subtle signs, I guess you say, of manipulation and control that in hindsight you wish you'd know noticed earlier.

Boy.

Well, there were a lot of them.

I remember when the first time I met my future in laws.

I write this in my book.

It's a funny story.

So I met Paige, fell in love with her immediately knew I wanted to marry her, but I needed to meet her father and this Uncle Robert character because she talked about him all the time.

So a month after starting to date her, I go up to Coeur d'alene, Idaho.

Beautiful panhandle of Idaho.

It's where her parents lived.

And I just met them and it's a little odd.

And so I have to go to the bathroom.

I go down the hall and use the hall bathroom.

And I'm a guy, I stand, I go to the bathroom, and as soon as I open the door to go out, my future father in law standing right there.

And his hearing wasn't the greatest, so we would always stand very close.

And he told me, said, you know, in my house, the men need to sit to pee.

I don't want you to stand because it splashes.

And I thought, wow, this is really odd.

He was listening to me and then he said the phrase that I would hear for the next 20 years.

Uncle Robert taught me that.

And I would hear that over and over and over again.

Uncle Robert taught me that, which meant, this is the gospel truth and you may not question it because it came from Uncle Robert.

So that was the start of it.

I hadn't even met this guy yet.

I met my future father in law, but I hadn't met Robert because he lived in California.

And so I finally met him and then, you know, he taught casinos with the true churches in America.

He also cult casinos office, on and on and on.

I mean, I could tell you a lot of stories, but you get the gist.

Yeah.

Wow.

Wow.

Cults often use, you know, religious or spiritual rhetoric, I guess, to justify what we call toxic behavior.

Can you explain how Uncle Robert twisted faith to manipulate you and others?

Sure.

It's very slow and I think for the listeners, the key to take away from this other than it's a fascinating story and I can tell you a lot of anecdotes, but I want to arm you with ammunition so you can spot a cult leader or Maybe help a friend who might be headed down the road towards a cult.

So the key point is that cult leaders don't start by spouting nonsense right off the bat.

They don't start with a bunch of lies and crazy talk.

They start with the truth.

Uncle Robert read the Bible over and over again, probably a hundred times.

He knew the Bible.

And then over the time, 5, 10, 15 years down the road, he would take each and every verse.

And he had a perverse ability to give each verse of the Bible his spin interpretation.

So let's say if you play golf and you miss, hit a golf ball by that much, like, you know, quarter of an inch, right?

Well, 100 yards down the fairway, the ball is way to the left or way to the right.

It's nowhere near where you wanted it to go, right?

Many years into listening to this guy, he had given such subtle little twists to the gospel that 10, 15 years down the road, we're nowhere near what the gospel really, I believe, is trying to say.

And so it was very subtle and it sounded really good after you had been kind of indoctrinated into how he spoke.

Let me give you another analogy.

When you would, if, like, if the three of us, pastor, if we sat down with Robert after, you know, 20 minutes with a cup of coffee, you'd turn to me and say, peter, this guy's crazy.

And most people would, but after a while of listening to your wife, who you love, just revere the man, your in laws, who you respect, revere the man.

You know, they called him either Uncle, Uncle Robert or dad because they felt like he was their father in the Lord.

And I would listen to some of his nonsense and think, well, I don't get it.

Like, I don't.

This guy doesn't seem brilliant to me.

But I couldn't say that to him because if I did, you know, I.

I'd have an angry wife.

So to help me process the cognitive dissonance, I gave the analogy of, you know, if you ask somebody for a cookie, you might just give your grandchild or child a cookie, right?

Chocolate chip cookie.

But if you ask Uncle Robert for a cookie, that is some wisdom.

He would not give you the cookie.

You would hold out your hand and he would pour, you know, butter and milk and flour and sugar and chocolate chips into your hand.

You'd have big gooey mess in your hand, but then you could eventually, you know, craft the cookie yourself, which is kind of nonsense.

But that's in my mind how I tried to process the cognitive dissonance of, on the one hand, realizing this is utter nonsense and crazy, and balance it with, my wife, who I love, adores the man.

What am I missing?

Right?

And that's what cult leaders do, is they infuse you with doubt and confusion.

Must be me.

It's my fault.

Why do I not see it?

Why can't I understand him?

There are plenty of times where Robert would say, you know, I would ask him a question and I would never get an answer.

The answer would be, why, Peter, are you so stupid that you can't understand me?

And so then that creates more and more doubt in my mind.

Because you can never doubt him.

The leader.

Yeah, yeah.

Because, I mean, mind control, that's a reoccurring theme, I guess you could say, in cult dynamics.

And how did he use those subtle manipulations to exert control over everyone?

And how can our listeners recognize these similar tactics in their own life?

Well, I always say that cults come in all different shapes and sizes, but at their core, they share two values or two traits.

Number one is they all have a leader.

Which is why I would say, like some churches that I believe are false churches.

I wouldn't call them a cult because they don't have one leader, but a cult will have a leader.

And then number two, they're all about mind control.

Undue, manipulative, course of mind control.

Then from there, they can look and do a million different things.

But you have to start with that.

Control starts in the mind.

And then from there you could go into physical abuse, sexual abuse, living in a commune, whatever it is.

Thankfully, we didn't have any of that.

There's no physical or sexual violence.

But I always say we drank the Kool aid.

And so it would start in the mind, and it would start with, he was the expert on everything.

You are not allowed to question him.

And the groundwork had already been laid by the time I met my future wife and my in laws.

Because Robert had been in that position of authority for at that point, probably 20, 25 years.

So he had already been the expert.

So I remember when I got introduced to this family, I thought it was really weird.

Yeah.

And he eventually kind of just wore me down.

But I think probably the biggest threat, like, again, if there's a takeaway, it would be if you, you know, one of your friends, family or friends has been introduced to somebody, whether it's, you know, pastor, life coach, you name it, and they are above reproach and above questioning, that's a red flag, right, Pastor?

The truth doesn't mind being questioned.

Amen.

Yeah, amen.

And breaking free from occult, from what I understand, I have never, thank God, lived it, but it's a daunting process.

What were some of the biggest challenges that you faced when you tried to leave?

And how did you find the strength to overcome them?

Well, clearly the strength came from the Lord.

You know, there have been several people that have read my book, heard my story and say, it's wonderful that you did not turn your back on your faith.

To which I reply, I wouldn't be here without my faith.

The Lord rescued me from a tiny but destructive religious cult.

And the journey in and out is horrific.

And you don't want to go through it.

You don't want anyone, you know, to go through it.

Now, me getting out of the cult was kind of atypical because a lot of people will have to try and leave the cult.

Of course the cult leaders don't want you to leave.

They'll try and keep you in the fold.

For me, it was almost like I was kicked out because ours was very small.

At its largest, it was maybe 10 to 12 adults, plus our kids.

We have five children.

One of Paige's brothers was in the cult and he had a daughter and a son.

So it was well under 20 people.

So probably you might call it a micro cult.

But I was effectively kicked out when Paige left me again because basically, in a sense, I was refuting or denying her true faith.

She would call herself a Christian, my in laws would call themselves a Christian.

Uncle Robert would say, he's more Christian than anybody.

Only he knows the true gospel.

And yet I believe it was.

He was a false teacher.

And so by me, you know, denying him and his, you know, what he taught, I was basically denying her religion, you know, and her existence.

So I got kicked out.

And I didn't want to get kicked out.

I wanted to preserve my marriage and my family.

And so it was very awkward, very tense.

The fact that I was so upset.

I wasn't suicidal, but I couldn't sleep.

I lost a ton of weight.

I was a wreck.

And the fact that I was reacting this way to losing my marriage.

Been married 20 years.

I love my wife and my kids are now distancing themselves from me.

Robert then told everybody, my wife and my kids, that it's proof I'm not a Christian because a true Christian wouldn't fall apart this way.

Which was utter nonsense because, you know, you look at the disciples, you look at David and how they wept on certain occasions and had deep emotions during troubling times.

And if I had been able to easily just say whatever to my wife, leaving me and my kids thinking I'm the devil, that would have probably proved I wasn't a believer.

So, you know, they made it very difficult for me to leave, even though they weren't trying to keep me in the fold.

It was just a very vicious attack once it became clear that I saw the problem.

And the problem was always Robert, because he tried to act as a gatekeeper to God, which is another common trait of cult leaders.

Why did you write your book Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger, and why that title?

Well, I wrote the book initially because I wanted my children, and we have five kids, to really hear the true story.

I hadn't talked to them much about it.

Again, when she left, I was a shell of a man, scared of my own shadow.

So she was doing all the, let's say, the lobbying or the diplomacy and telling the kids that I was this horrible person.

And they for a while believed it.

And so during COVID when we were staying at home and not a whole lot to do, I just started writing and would write three, four hours a day, finish the book initially, again, for my kids to read it.

And then before I published it, I had pastor, a number of people, family members and friends read it.

And I asked them, aside from the fact that it is fascinating, it's an incredible story.

Do you think it's appropriate for me to publish it?

And they all said yes, because I was very fair to my former wife, and I changed everybody's first name to add a little layer of privacy.

Certainly fair to my children.

Just told the truth.

And so step one is, you know, so my kids will know the truth.

Step two would be to arm other Christians with information so that no one they know and love will repeat my mistakes because, again, it's horrible.

You don't want to experience it.

So I try through my book to help people to recognize a potential cult leader.

Potential is key.

I'm not saying that if you have these traits, you know, that this person's a cult leader.

And then, baby, you know how a friend of yours might be headed off into a cult.

And the biggest thing that I would say, the biggest red flag, if I can just kind of segue into this, is that if someone you know and love has dramatically altered the way they communicate.

So let's say someone you know and love no longer comes to Bible study or Friday night bowling or the book club, whatever it is, they don't call.

They don't email, they don't text.

And now they've got this new person in their life that, you know, you can't question.

Those are huge red flags because we are all the body of Christ.

We're the body of believers.

And if I, you know, drop off the pinky, I don't die, the pinky does.

So when we become isolated from the body, from fellow believers, that's when we're vulnerable to people like Uncle Robert.

And then the title, Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger.

You're going to have to read the book on that one.

And it really was.

And it set the stage for the events that have taken place over the last 25 to 26 years.

And much of it has come to fruition.

It's turned out to be incredibly prophetic.

And of course, Robert was able to take the dream, which I believe the Lord gave her, gave Paige as a warning.

He turned it upside down on its head and used it to solidify his control over her and the family and all the destruction that has come from that really starts with that dream.

Amen.

Amen.

You mentioned that there was a comment from your brother that helped you see the truth.

Can you tell us about that moment and how it shifted your perspective?

I'm trying to think which one that is.

There's a couple.

So again, I have four older brothers, but I remember, I don't know if it's this one in the book, but I'll tell you it.

So I would share emails.

So I would get emails from my wife, from Uncle Robert or others, because she's now left, she's taking the three youngest kids with her.

I'm still in Montana, she's in Idaho, Robert's in California.

My family's all over the country.

So I'm kind of on my own.

And I would get these emails and they would send me into such a tailspin, you know, I was just a wreck because they were very aggressive and cruel, horrible emails.

I mean, it just, I look back now and it's like, oh, it's just horrible.

So I would send them to people, a friend of mine or my attorneys or a brother, and be like, is it okay for me to read this email?

And the one brother just, I remember him reading it and thinking, you know, it's just.

It's.

This is utter nonsense.

This is psychobabble.

And I remember being stunned because he was saying that was nonsense and psycho babble from an email from Uncle Robert.

Like, you can't question Uncle Robert.

What do you mean?

It's psychobabble.

You don't care what Uncle Robert has to say.

And he said, no, he didn't at all.

And the fact that a human being could walk the earth safely, you know, insanely not care what Uncle Robert thought was terrifying to me.

And I look back on now and it is.

It's funny.

But at the moment, that's where I was.

And so slowly but surely.

Oh, yeah, you know what?

My brother's right.

That was kind of weird, wasn't it?

That email.

And I had dozens of moments like that.

Wow.

Wow.

And how did you find your faith again on your healing journey after leaving the cult?

Well, I believe, you know, my faith never left me.

The Lord never left me.

I don't know if I would be the one sheep out of the hundred that there's 99 in the fold that I was wandering.

It felt like I had lost everything.

I'd lost my marriage, I'd lost my family.

And Robert, at the time, was telling me that I was not a Christian in our little cult.

You really weren't saved until you got saved by him.

So my in laws, my wife, probably some of my children back then, had all professed faith in Christ, right?

Romans was a 10, 11.

If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, you are saved.

And I had done that.

So a number of people, pretty much everybody in our cult, but Robert was able to, over time, cause everybody to doubt that conversion moment or that moment of expressing their faith and trust and turned it into a fraudulent demonic experience.

And now you had to be saved by him.

Well, I went through that like five times with this guy.

Like, every time I failed according to him, like, I just couldn't get it right.

I was incapable of receiving salvation again.

I look back now and it's utterly wicked.

So when I finally realized that he was the problem, how wicked this was it, you know, it made me realize that I was saved all along and I'd never left the faith.

I was just very confused and I was being, you know, poisoned by this horrible little narcissistic liar.

And for me, it proves that, you know, there's a reason why we need a savior.

You know, if we were perfect, Robert, if we were perfect, we wouldn't need a savior.

Amen.

And if we didn't ever sin or do really dumb things.

We wouldn't need a savior.

But, you know, we do.

We're human.

We're sinful.

And so my story, while it's so tragic and bizarre and really weird, it's victorious because it shows the power and the strength of the Lord.

And I think, too, if I can add to that, it's important that we recognize just how sinful we are, how imperfect we are, because then that humbles us so we can realize that we do need to be saved.

And I would look back when I was 13 and I accepted the Lord, or I surrendered my life to the Lord, however you want to describe it, I realized I was a sinner, and I knew that he was my savior.

Okay.

Robert was able to, you know, take that moment.

You know, I'm in my late 40s at this point, you know, say, no, you didn't really do it.

You were wrong.

You had lied, and you're never truly saved.

And I look back on that moment, which, again, he was wrong.

And I look back on what happened as I was, you know, in this little man's cult, that, you know, I've made errors along the way, as we all have, but the key is that we be humble and admit it.

And Robert taught that he only sinned once in his entire life, so the cult leaders will try and put themselves on a pedestal.

So Robert would tell the story that when he was a kid, he had been instructed by his father how to safely use the slingshot.

He grew up in Syria.

This just kind of legendary upbringing.

Oh, it's Uncle Robert.

Everything's so special.

So he doesn't use the slingshot properly, and he kills the family goat.

And he feels horrible about it.

And that's the only time he ever sinned in his life.

He would tell us this story, and it was if, you know, Pearl Harbor, December 7 or 9, 11.

And then Uncle Robert killed the goat.

Like, that's how important and significant that moment was.

Well, how humble can a person be if they think they've only sinned once in their life?

How open to correction are they?

Wow.

For listeners who might suspect that someone they know is trapped in a cult, what advice would you give them to provide them support without pushing that person away?

Yeah, great question.

Nobody who is in a cult knows they're in a cult.

That is the most important point that I need to emphasize.

You never know you are in a cult.

You only know you were in one.

So the person that you know and love that you think is headed down that Road has no idea.

They're never in a cult.

There's never a cult.

It's not a cult.

It's always something better.

It's something more sublime.

Only this guy knows the true gospel and you know you're wrong.

It's not a cult.

And it may be a flaming cult, but that person will not know it because remember, it starts with the mind control.

So it's really incumbent upon friends and family to then reach out, be bold, and take the initiative, and try and help that person see it.

That is why cult leaders control their members through paranoia, isolation, and secrecy.

Because they know.

Probably.

They may not admit it, but cult leaders know if there are voices from the outside that share the truth, then these cult members are going to leave.

They'll see the truth, so they want to protect their fold.

They, of course, will describe it as those outsiders are evil and they're going to poison their minds when it's the other way around.

So that person who's in it doesn't know it.

You do, you know, or you know, the friend or family member who knows it.

And you've really got to be able to remove that person from the influence of that cult leader, however you do that.

I don't have any advice on how you get that done, but, you know, you can offer the best advice, you know, Robert, to somebody, but then the moment that person, let's say, leaves your office or leaves the church and goes back to that little cult group within 30 minutes.

Yeah.

Everything that you said has been undone by the cult leader.

Amen.

Amen.

And is that Uncle Robert and all that still in existence today?

As far as the cult and all that?

I know you said that they kind of broke up or some of your wife is in one place.

And he's always been.

He's always been in Southern California.

You know, they would just talk on the phone or he would come up to northern Idaho and we would have these conferences a couple times a year.

We would sit and listen to him talk for hours, days and days.

As far as I know, they still are involved in it.

I haven't seen or talked to him in seven years.

But, you know, we're still getting dragged.

I'm still getting dragged through the courts because of course, you know, now that I have seen the truth and she has not, unfortunately, she.

We did finally get divorced.

I tried to fight it for years and years, but the divorce did go through.

So then the battle has been over the kids.

And of course, culture abusive towards kids emotionally and mentally and spiritually.

And out of our five kids, they're all kind of at a different phase of their recovery.

But it's important to protect them from this, to protect them from this man because he's still there and he still has that influence.

Peter, this has been so interesting.

And I know that there's someone listening to us right now that may have some other questions.

And you know that you go over a lot of this information in your book, Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger.

But how can someone order a copy of your book?

I take it's on Amazon, is that right?

It is, yeah, it's on Amazon.

You can go to Barnes and Noble and other places, but it's on Amazon.

You can also go to my website, author peteyoung.com you can order all of my books on that site.

You could also reach out to me because I do speak publicly on this, because this is.

This is kind of my passion now to share this.

Use my story as a cautionary tale to.

To warn others and to equip others.

Amen.

Amen.

I'll put links to all that down in the show notes below.

Wow.

You know, folks, in a world that's filled basically with uncertainty and deception, there's a devil still roaming around.

He's a great deceiver.

It's vital to be cautious about whom you allow into your life as an authority figure.

I mean, surround yourselves with leaders who uplift and guide you towards God's truth, not with their own personal agendas.

Peter Young's story, it's a powerful reminder of the dangers of misplaced trust and the hope of restoration through faith.

To learn more about Peter's journey and other sites, click the links down below to connect with him.

Be sure to order his must read memoir, Stop the Tall Man, Save the Tiger.

Don't miss this opportunity to protect yourself and those you love.

Amen.

Peter, thank you again for taking the time out of your schedule to join us today, brother.

I do appreciate it, Pastor.

Thank you very much.

It's been an honor.

Amen.

Folks, that's all the time we have for today.

Peter Young, myself, Pastor Bob, reminding you to be blessed, all that you do.

Thank you for listening to today's episode of the Kingdom Crossroads podcast.

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To share their messages with the world, please visit our website and at www.podcastersforchrist.com.

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for more information, until next time, be blessed in all that.